Podcast Episode 102 Transcript

Episode 102: Tapping Into Your Retirement Accounts For Multifamily Investing With Josh Plave

Are you ready to bring your real estate game to the next level? My name is James Prendamano. I'm the CEO and founder of Prereal, and over the past 25 years, I've closed over a billion dollars in transactional real estate. Each week, a meeting with outstanding investors, high performing individuals, and visionaries operating in the real estate space. These are the people that are actually out there in the real estate game right now getting it done. This podcast aims at bringing anyone's game to the next level. This is the Prereal Podcast. Welcome, everyone, to the Prereal Podcast. We're joined today at maybe the Best timing ever by Josh Plave. Josh is the founder of Wall to main. He's a full time multifamily investor. Josh specializes in accessing, unlocking, and using those retirement funds to become an investor in the multifamily market. A lot of ground to cover. We just had a big announcement from the Fed, so we'll touch on that as well. I'm not sure that there's ever been a better time to have this conversation. So, Josh, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks very much, James. I appreciate you having me. Yeah, look, I think there's a lot of value you can deliver for the audience today, so let's go ahead and just jump right in. So first question I usually lead with is I think it's good for the audience to have some context, a little bit of background. Could you give us a little bit of detail on the journey and how you landed where you are today? Yeah, absolutely. So I primarily focus on retirement funds and a lot of people kind of ask, how is someone I'm 32, so how is someone who's young kind of involved in this space? Well, I've actually been at it for a while. I kind of like to jump back to when I was 16. So for half my life now, I've had a Roth IRA. So my mother and my grandfather were both CPAs and kind of preached financial literacy. I should get started early. I really thank them for that. So kind of got started when I earned some money in one summer, started investing from there and just contributing to it and accumulating more capital within that account. Fast forward about ten years from then. My mother and my grandfather, who I had mentioned, unfortunately both passed away, but they were nice enough to actually leave my sisters and I with specifically their retirement accounts. It wasn't really a life changing amount of money, but it was enough that I need to respect their legacy, everything they worked for, and I don't really want to put it on the hottest item I could invest in and kind of blow it up. So I started looking at where I could deploy. The funds had been growing more and more, less and less trusting, you could say, of the stock market. Wanted to kind of take them into alternative assets. And so I looked into how I could deploy them into commercial real estate, what that was going to take. And I have analytical mind, so I kind of dove in as much as I can to answer as many of the questions as possible. Before I got started, I ended up transitioning within that space to the active side, and now I syndicate commercial properties. So when you say commercial properties, we do a lot of retail, office plays, medical buildings, where we're specifically discussing multifamily. Yes, yes, multifamily properties. Okay. So for the audience here, at a time when literally a few minutes ago, chairman Powell confirmed that there was a 75 basis point increase, and that essentially represents the largest increase, I think, in about three decades now. So could you spend a couple of minutes, Josh, explaining to the audience, in your opinion, does that make it a better time or worse time? How does that impact the multifamily opportunities that are out there? We'll say it's a different time. We have to start structuring our deals a little differently and expecting lending terms to come in much more differently and kind of needing to be a bit more conservative on our projections. A lot of the times we come into a property, we acquire it with whatever debt we can, and we're looking to refinance in three or four years. And so now if we do plan to refinance, we need to look at refinancing with higher interest rates, using more conservative assumptions and lower proceeds, assuming that the properties are not going to be appreciating at the clip that they have in the last two or three years and just kind of taking a step back. Maybe not. And the nice thing is we've actually seen in the last few weeks already that sellers are kind of taking a price cut. They're taking a step back and understanding because the capital markets have changed so much, we can't acquire the properties at the cost that we have been in the last couple of months. So things are starting to adjust and move already. So it's interesting, I've been through a few cycles already in the business, and this time around I'm noticing that the market is responding almost in real time, which typically in real estate, in my experience, we typically lag at least a full quarter, if not two or three quarters. What do you think the reason for that is that we're getting such a quick response from the market this time around? I mean, it's a great question, and I think so much of it just centers around. We're in the information age. We see stock trading moving at a faster rate because of the predominance of algorithms. And I think we're in an environment where a lot of the institutional buyers as well are implementing the same tactics within the commercial space. And so I think as they kind of take a step back and pull back, we're seeing the pool of buyers dwindle or adjust their approach. And so we as smaller operators who are institutional have to adapt at the same time and the sellers really have to change their expectations. Yeah, I think you hit the nail on my head. It seems like you can't get away from information today and being tied to the trusty devices here, I think that it's so prominent than it is so non stop. On every platform there's just this onslaught of info. So I think that certainly plays into the market's response this time around. Most of our podcasts, when we're talking to multifamily syndicators, it's the traditional LPGP structure and they're taking depending on the sophistication and if it's a wine pool fund or a host of different factors, but it's not qualified money or it's not retirement money. Right. So there's a massive difference there. And without getting too crazy, could you talk to the audience a little bit about your specialty and the niche that you're working in? Yeah, absolutely. As I kind of mentioned, because I came into it from a passive angle, I understood and now understand what passive investors are looking for and the things that they're needing to kind of adjust their investing strategy for when they're looking at cash discretionary funds compared to retirement accounts. So because of that, I ended up building for myself and I realized I could use it on the active side. I ended up building a UBIT calculator. So this is for folks who aren't aware of the term you get is unrelated business income tax. And even though it's a tax deferred account, when you invest in leveraged assets, there is actually an associated tax that comes with it and typically it's at a pretty high interest rate. So I needed to figure out really what the impact was going to be to my returns. And now that I have that built out, I can actually run every one of our deals through not just doing a normal, typical financial due diligence, add this extra layer and because of that we can then structure the deals in a way that allows us to kind of minimize that tax, boost that IRR, and really figure out how investors can maximize their returns and not be taken out by the taxes associated with it. Folks on the website and of course the links will always be below, but it's Waltomain.com. There's a little video and the calculator is right there. So if you want to check out the UBI calculator, it's right there on Josh's site. So 401Ks and IRAs, is it as simple as I decide tomorrow? Hey, I want to tap my IRA or my four hundred and one K and move some of those proceeds or all of those proceeds or dollars over to Josh. Is there a long process to get this set up? What does it take for us to be able to make these investments with you? Yeah, it's a bit more simple than most people would imagine. I kind of start with saying if you're thinking of certain retirement funds in your head right now, if they are in a they're with your current employer, most likely you won't be able to use them. Some of the 401K programs need to allow for what's called an in service rollover, but most don't allow for it. So you'll have to either move on from that employer or retire and then you can access those funds. But if you have an old 401K or an IRA yeah, I mean a self directed IRA is really no different than a standard IRA. It's kind of just a marketing term the industry has put on it. And so when you transfer the funds from an IRA to a self directed IRA, you're just rolling things over. There's no tax situation there. But yeah, you're typically just going to open up a custodial account at an IRA company that allows for alternative assets. Usually if you're holding it at a Schwab, Fidelity, Vanguard, they only deal with inequities. And so there are specific custodians who allow you to invest in really anything you want, crypto, real estate, whatever it might be. And from there, once you have that account, you can deploy the funds however you see fit. And let's say I have a million dollars in my 401K. Do I have to move the entire amount over? Can that be broken up? Yeah, not at all. You can move a dollar over anywhere between a dollar and a million dollars. However much you want to deploy into alternate assets, that's what you bring over. Okay, so it's a fairly low bar to get our accounts in order to be able to make the investment in your process. What are the next steps? So let's see the next steps. One thing I should mention is there's really two different types of these accounts. So you should essentially decide how you want to deploy these funds. If you have them at a custodian. There's going to be a process where every time you make a decision on your investment, you have to fill out paperwork and send it into the custodian. And that can take some time. There's a bit of red tape and they need to check into everything kind of cross t's and dot their I's and it can be a bit of a hassle and you might have to pay extra fees to have them process that paperwork. I like to kind of use a different structure and I would suggest it for folks who are really just going passive because there are some rules around it that you want to make sure you're not violating. But you open up an LLC as well and a lot of providers will do both of these steps for you. But not just open the account, but also establish an LLC. And from there the IRA makes an investment and owns 100% of the shares of the LLC and so from there, you're the manager of the LLC. You have a bank account just like any other business would have, and you can make the decisions on the fly. I kind of like to say you can find a deal at breakfast and fund it by lunch. You're the one that's making the calls and all you pay is a simple wire fee. Beyond that, yeah, I mean, you're just essentially trying to connect with any kind of opportunity that you want, whether it's syndicators or you're talking to brokers and real estate agents to find properties. Once you have everything established and you have the funds sitting in cash, it's not really a lot different than using cash itself. Few rules you want to look out for, but beyond that, yeah, it just moves around like normal funds. Okay, so we have everything in order here and we decided we did our homework. We like the portfolio you've built, which I believe is now over 1500 units, correct? Yeah. Okay, so we want to do business with Josh, right? Are you structuring deal by deal raises? Are you structuring just a blind pool where here's the allotment and you're going to go out and take these assets down? Could you walk us through the process there? Yeah, absolutely. I actually had an investor ask this exact question 30 minutes ago. So we are doing the single fund model where we're looking at one property. You make the call, you get to do your own due diligence. And if you like what we put together, I think we're going to be looking at that fund of fund models as the market softens and probably in the next year or two. My one main hesitation, to be perfectly honest, is those funds have an expiration date. They have to acquire the properties by a certain moment. And so a lot of folks were getting into that situation where they had to acquire properties and with prices sky high, they were kind of shoehorn horning things into that fund as things often and we're going to have more options available to us, I think that's when we might start looking at that model. So that's a really important point that I want to spend another minute or two on. So what Josh is referencing there, folks, is there are certain fund structures where they're looking for the commitment. Right. The fund wants to know that they have cash on hand, but once they take that cash into the fund, the clock starts to tick. And based on the Docs and their subscription agreement, they have to place that money. And for a myriad of reasons. There could be deals that blew up, the market was just too competitive. It could be the fund manager just wasn't on top of it the way they should have been. As you get closer and closer to that expiration period, if you will, now it becomes almost a manic search. And in my experience, when we're making decisions in real estate that are rushed. Big time mistakes can happen. So big distinction there. If the money's going in ahead of time and there's a prescribed amount of time and you're getting to the end of that time, there can be some potential hiccups. And Joshua's structure is he's finding the deal and then offering, I guess you're sending around your syndication package to the investors, and it's up to them if they want to participate at that point or not. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. What can I expect as a passive investor that is using retirement funds? What's the experience like after you've sent over a couple of memorandums and I say, Oh, this one's for me. I actually know this area. I think it's poised for a lot of growth. What can I expect to happen here? Yeah, so we run all of our opportunities through a specific portal where you can review those documents, you can download them, and you can take them to however you want to run through them for you or yourself as well. From there, you can sign there. You wire funds directly. All the information comes from there, and you wire funds, and then we run the deal through there. So we've got all of our updates. We provide those monthly, and then we usually pay out quarterly from there. And we structure our deals 70 30 split with an 8% preferred return. So you can keep track of all your distributions through the portal as well. Everything's transparent. We're available at all times to answer any questions you might have about the property struggles or successes. What we see in the market, it's a pretty seamless process, and it's fairly passive. However, hands on or off, you want to be. So what does the tax impact look like? Right. So if you're not using retirement funds, you get your distributions, and depending on your structure, your accountant helps you deal with those gains in a number of different ways. What are we looking at when you're dealing with retirement funds? Because you wouldn't have access to that cash. Correct. It would go right into the retirement fund. Or am I wrong about that? Yeah, that's exactly how it works. Okay, so the money goes into the retirement fund, and what is the taxable event look like? How is that handled? Yeah, so the way it's structured essentially also mirrors how the taxes come into play. So let's say you're investing in a leveraged property, right? And so let's say it's 75% LTV. To make it simple, 75% of the income is coming from non tax deferred funds. It's coming from a bank that's lending you the capital. So when you have, let's say, $100 income come into your retirement account, 25% of it was earned by your retirement account, totally tax free. 75% of it was not tax deferred capital. And so you have to pay taxes on that 75%. So every year, there's a calculation based on what that leverage was, and then you got to figure out how much you're going to pay out of that. The nice thing is, because multifamily is a high loss space where we've got the accelerated depreciation, we've got a lot of expenses and everything. You can use all of those just at that exact same rate, let's say it's 75%, you can use three quarters of them to help offset that income. And so that's what essentially what my calculator does is figures out what that allocation of losses will be against the income. And so when you actually have to pay, it comes directly out of the retirement account. You don't actually have to have any cash available to pay it. Your retirement account pays the taxes for you. But the nice thing is, because of those losses, you can offset pretty much all of your cash flow. I haven't really seen any deals where there aren't enough losses stacked up to help or to not offset all of the distributions you see on this rental income. When it comes to capital gains, you'll have some funds leftover sorry, some losses left over to help offset those capital gains. But that's typically when you're going to see any kind of loss or sorry, any type of tax. But in terms of its impact, I kind of look at it from an annual percentage base. So if we're just kind of general numbers, if we're trying to double money within five years at the 20% annual rate, we're typically going to be our deals. We've structured between two and a 3% reduction. So you're looking at 17% to 18% returns after the event. And that's essentially just because we're trying to find deals where we can refinance early. So we're keeping the higher or higher and getting your capital halfway through and looking for properties where we can just kind of minimize that tax implication. So to be clear, even as a passive investor here, you still have the benefits of depreciation and all those losses. Yeah, just a limited amount, but yeah, you do. Okay. And I think you had said that this is a huge point, right. If there's $250,000 gain, you're able to pay the tax from those retirement funds. You don't have to take them from a different source. Yeah. And you can't even do it. It's not a lot. Perfect. Okay, so what are minimum investments? What's the minimum amount to get into the deals? Our minimum is typically $75,000 per deal. Okay. $75,000 per deal. And where geographically are you focusing? Yeah, to be perfectly honest, we're not reinventing the wheel. We're looking where a lot of people are across the Sun Belt, typically going to be Texas over to Florida. We're closing on a property in Chattanooga today, so we kind of go up to the Tennessee area. We look at a few Midwest properties. If there's kind of an exceptional circumstance and we know the market really well, our partner has property already there, so maybe acquired one once. But yeah, warm weather climates where the demographics are really shifting. People are moving down there and we're seeing low supply, high demand essentially. And are you focusing in one or two or three towns and or cities or do you have holdings in a host of different markets? Let's see, we've got a good amount of markets under our belt, but the most we have three properties in the Sarasota Bradenton market which are by far our best performing ones. In the last 18 months or so, the southwest Florida market has actually been the number one market for multifamily. We've seen rent increases in the 35% to 38% range year over year. So there just is no new supply coming online and there are droves of people moving to the area. It's a desirable location, nice beaches, a lot of nice community amenities. So as I mentioned, a lot of demographics shifts going in that direction. Yeah, the decentralization is real folks. This is happening in Mass and I don't think it's going to stop. So I'm always curious, how are you handling scale right? How are you handling folks talk all the time about investing in multifamily real estate and I think candidly they make it sound a hell of a lot easier than it really is. Right. Never mind sourcing and acquiring and having the boots on the ground and the relationships to find the right deals and to be competitive and to be able to actually get a deal closed after you close, that's when the fun starts, right? Yeah. And it's not easy. I know this from personal experience managing these buildings from afar. So what is the strategy and how have you guys handled having one or two buildings in any particular market? Not enough for say, full time crews, full time supers, full time maintenance, full time construction. How do you manage that? Well, so I would say the number one way is working with the same property managers across a good portion of our properties. So we're working with two companies that were very familiar with, we've got a decent help hold on the asset management side of things. We have a good background in project management and that's essentially what asset management is. But when it comes to property management, just as it is with any level of real estate, whether it's single family, commercial of any type, it all starts and ends and it's so critical to find the right property manager. So we've got a couple that we really like working with, understand how they work. And so we'll typically have full time staff or acquiring properties that are at the right size to have that on site. And they've got dedicated construction teams. We typically run all of our actual construction through them unless it's a really big project and then we use them in addition to an outside construction firm that we bring in as well. And you had mentioned a good size. What's in the sweet spot for you? We're looking for about 100%, 350 units.

Are you looking for vertical opportunities or these kind of walk up opportunities where there's a lot of sprawl? What's the focus then? Yeah, most of ours are going to be that garden style where it's two, maybe three stories. You're looking at B and A class properties or taking a pause on C class for now. We've acquired one in Sarasota. It is elevator based, it's five stories, but yeah, there was like an exceptional opportunity there. So not exactly our bread and butter and we don't have to do too much of a rehab. We're looking for those properties that were built eighty s ninety s early 2000s that aren't in a bad or dilapidated state. They just haven't really been rehabbed in the last ten to maybe 15 years tops, where everything is in good shape. We just kind of have to modernize it and bring it up to the expectations of tenants in the market. You mentioned the pause on C class assets. Is that a function of just soaring construction costs and material costs and labor costs or is there something else behind that? Yeah, I mean it mostly is center around those lending terms. Lenders are a lot less friendly to those opportunities. We're seeing rates that are increasing even further around those and yeah, I mean costs are running very high and when we're improving the property we kind of want to see the maximum benefit for it. And when you're in C class you're just not going to see as much of a delta between where rates are and where you can push the market rent. Okay, so you probably get a lot of packages and you probably have folks sending you opportunities quite a bit. Is that the case? Yeah, absolutely. And brokers have a lot more time right now than they used to. Yeah. So what does a good deal look like for you? What are the metrics you're focusing on? I kind of touched on it already. We're looking for things that have some general value add component where we're experienced in coming in and kind of rehabbing those units and resurfacing countertops replacing fronts on boxes and everything metrics. We're looking for opportunities that already have it's kind of hard to find assets right now that don't have good occupancy, but ones that either they're at 100% Occupancy and they aren't charging the right rents, you never really want to be at 100%. So the ones that aren't taking a focus on that or they're just managed by a mom and pop or like a one off property manager who's not really fully experienced in larger multifamily properties. And so Occupancy, for whatever reason in this market is actually in the 80s or low 90s. So we're looking for that places where we can really come in with a large rehab budget. We'll see how things shake out. Now but we've been focusing on a lot of opportunities that we can use. Bridge debt, where 100% of the rehabs included in that loan. So with the shifting economy, I've been cautioning folks for some time about what I felt was coming. People had talked about interest rates rising for a long time, but we weren't. We felt that this was when it was going to happen and it's happening. Is there a minimum fixed term on debt that you're considering when you're acquiring these buildings now? Is it a certain amount of years that you want a fixed deal? Yeah, I would say so. We structure them around five or six years and we want terms that can actually match that as well. Bridge in the past, it's three plus one plus one. And so we need something that can at least stretch for five years, where we can get some leeway time between the two and five year mark, where we know rates will match what we can afford and be able to take on at that point. I know we don't have a crystal ball, but you've got a good bit of roadway, if you will, behind you. You've executed on a number of different deals. What do you think the next few years look like in the multifamily space? Specifically, how does inflation and rising rates impact the overall market and how does it impact the availability of potential renters, supply and demand, et cetera? Yeah, so it's a really exceptional situation. We've got our hands here. The nice thing with multifamily in particular is as inflation rises, it responds in a faster way than many other asset classes. We raise the rent in coordination with it as well. So we're looking at a situation here where for the next few years, especially now that rates are even higher, developers are going to slow up and we're not going to see nearly as much supply come online as has been trying to rush to market in the last five years. So as that supply kind of dries up god, I'm sorry, I just lost my train of thought completely. Now talking about the supply drying up, as we're looking at this inflationary period and builders not building more and bringing more product to the market, that's where you kind of left off. Yeah. So we're going to see a situation here where rents are meeting that inflation and so they're climbing at a rate that it kind of exceeds what the historical terms are. Obviously, it's not going to climb at the rate we've seen the last one or two years, but they're going to continue to climb. But as rates go up, we're likely going to see that continuation of cap rate compression. And so you're not going to get the kind of return when you're trying to sell an asset that you have been seeing. So typically, as rents go up, the cap rate goes down as well. You can get a better value for it. But when we're looking at a higher interest rate environment, you're actually going to see your NOI getting less value on a sale. And so it might be a good time to buy where you're getting actually a better rate for really nice or you're kind of in a sticky position where you don't know if you want to sell yet. Yeah. So I believe that if you have the ability to access cash, we're headed into the greatest buying opportunity, at least that I'll see in my lifetime. Pretty bullish there. There's this kind of multifamily craze down in the sunbelt states, and these areas we're talking about have been fueled in large part by this decentralization that we're seeing. Can you spend a couple of minutes on that? Man, we're in uncharted waters. We've seen historically, the cycles come and go. We've seen periods of high inflation and of course, high interest rates that come along with that, but I don't think we've ever seen it on the heels of in fact, I know we haven't seen it on the heels of such a massive amount of money being pumped into the economy in a condensed period of time and a mass migration out of the big cities. I'm up here in New York, and man, it's palpable. Folks are leaving every day and they're not coming back. As we head into these more challenging times in the economy and folks are running out of that artificial stimulus that was pumped into the market, and they're seeing their dream kind of evaporate. Right. There's a lot of folks that are on the books that are looking to list their property, and they were going to take advantage of the highest of the high market and low rates, and they were going to bug out down south or head west, and that's starting to evaporate. And like we touched on earlier, man, it's happening fast. The market is responding in record time, at least in my experience. So what happens now? How does this play out? Do folks feel trapped? And do they kind of put those plans on hold? Do they look at this and say, hell, we may not get as much as we thought we were going to get here, but we're probably going to get a better deal down south now, and we'll be in a higher interest rate environment, but the price will be commensurate to that increase rate. Does the flow of people abate, stay steady, increase? What do you see here? Yeah, as we see with the market right now, there are so many indicators pushing in all directions. It's not like past environments where you could look at a bunch of downward pressure and be like, oh, yeah, it's coming. There's stuff all over. I've put together kind of like an economic newsletter for my investors, and recently I just saw that the rate of people moving in the past year has been steadily declining since 1980. We're looking at one out of twelve people every year is actually moving out of their homes. And so as supply is drying up, you're seeing fewer and fewer people actually move. So you're going to see limited areas where we're going to see a really large disparity between certain markets where sellers in some markets are going to be getting a pitiful return on what they thought they had and other ones are going to be booming. But you're going to see a lot of folks that are investors who are realizing that's the case and so they might be trying to get out at a break next fee that we've seen before the situation exacerbates even further. That said, because of that lower moving rate, maybe people don't move around as much because you're seeing people double and triple up in apartments, kind of locked in homeowners who have had incredibly low interest rates aren't going to be selling and so folks are kind of moving more towards renting. But if there's no supply there to meet them, it's a tricky situation. And where do they go? I don't know where they go if there's no supply to meet them. And again, we touched on this a bit earlier. We're finding, and this started before the rates really started to jump on us, that a lot of construction projects are being taken off the board, which is another anomaly. The supply chain issues have really stunted expansion in many markets. Yeah, I mean it really has. In the properties we own in Sarasota, we only saw two properties coming online in the coming, I think it was three quarters to compete with us and honestly they're taking much longer to complete than you would ever see. My next door neighbor actually runs a development company who is putting together a whole condo project around the corner from us and they're throwing everything up. And I was able to see the difference between how fast things were moving when they first started the project last summer and they're trying to finish looks like twelve units right now and it's moving so slowly and they're actually seeing the first time where these properties aren't. They're a single family, but they're not getting 2030 offers on them. It took them three or four days until they had a single offer and they're just kind of sitting there, especially the higher priced ones. So things are really shifting and slowing down. And I'm curious this is going to be the one down the street is really going to be my prime example of where the market is. I live in Charlotte. It's one of the hottest real estate markets in the country and so if I can see it in real time, it must be out there in other places. And I'm curious how much they build out this development over the next year or two if they finish it right away and try to get it before it really crumbles or if they're pausing it and hope fading. Yeah. And again, so much of that, in spite of they could have a complete alignment on what they want to do. But if supply chain doesn't loosen up, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference, right? I mean, absent the materials to complete the jobs, there's not a whole heck of a lot we could do about it. Yeah, you're seeing lumber prices collapse as well because there's no supply and people are starting to build even less. Again, the markets are responding quickly. It's an interesting time out there. Folks. This is a really interesting spin on the number of the shows that we've done recently on multifamily investing. You're the first one that we've had on that is using retirement funds. So I thought that this would be a great episode for the audience and you certainly just didn't disappoint. Josh, where can folks find you? What's the best place to find you online? Yeah. So company is called Wall to Maine, as in Wall Street to Main Street. This past week has been the prime example of why we named our company that. So the website is Walltomain.com. So we have a good bit of education there where we can teach you how to use existing funds, how to optimize them, and make sure you're deploying them in the right way. And then we've also got investment opportunities. I offer a free PDF called I think it's like the top tips for investing in multifamily with retirement accounts so you can kind of learn all the tools of the trade to make sure you're deploying them in the right way. I really appreciate the time. Josh Plave, everybody. Wall to Main. As always, folks out there, I know these are crazy times. Stay safe.